Watershed - You were an attaché at the Brazilian Embassy in Beijing for two years. What were the biggest challenges, surprises and professional and personal achievements? 

Cesar Augusto Lambert de Azevedo - A challenge that we underwent in China is with the dynamic of processes. There is an apparent slowness in decision taking. One of the reasons is that our interlocutor usually has no decision making power. Soon the time seems excessive to us. However, experience showed me that the process assures security of the Chinese in decisions. A surprise was the extraordinary capacity of the Chinese to overcome difficulties; they resort to creative initiatives, generally simple and effective. Professionally the exercise of observation and analysis that the rich environment of Beijing – or Peking, as it is known in Brazil – provided, was gratifying. In personal terms it was the chance to have contact with a small part of Chinese culture, at the same time verifying the visual transformation of a city which joined together the esthetic of the monuments which arose among hutongs and the new visual of the wide avenues sidelined with modern buildings. 

WS - You just finished defending a doctorate thesis on the Chinese foreign policy and the United States. What changes with Obama and Hillary?

CLA - My study investigated the North American foreign policy towards China after the Cold War. I think that the group of domestic North American interests lays in a resulting cooperation with China. There is an important implication in the economic and commercial domain between the two countries, even considering the existence of dissonance in the field of security for the region of the Far East. Thus, I think that the president elected to take office on January 20 will try to deepen relations with China, an important partner of the United States, especially in the face of the crisis today under way. Hillary Clinton may be of fundamental importance for president Obama, thanks to her experience as First Lady in the White House for eight years in the past decade. It was a period in which there was a deepening of relations between the countries, mainly in the economic and commercial fields. But there were episodes of tension, like the crisis of the straights of Taiwan, in 1996, and the mistaken bombardment of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade. Hillary must have got experience in this period. 

WS - The economy appears to prevail over politics in the China -Japan and  China-India relations but delicate historical disputes still carry great weight. How should Beijing deal with this?

CLA - In fact they exist. There are disputes for the recognition of possession of the islands of the Sea of the South of China and the Yellow Sea which involve various countries in the region; there are traces of the existence of petroleum around them. However, we know that there are possible cooperative solutions when the conjugation of interests points towards a game in which all parties win. More so because the instability in the field of security is prejudicial to the flow of investments which arrives in the region. Especially for China, they are important to the government so it can continue with the project of affording the development for the interior provinces. This continuity is vital for the regime, in order to reduce tensions mainly in the rural area. However, I have difficulty in accepting that the economy prevails over politics. Certainly the political agenda includes points that are modulated by the economy; but not only by this, but also by the culture of society, by the present leadership, by the characteristics of the international system of the moment and other conditioners. 

WS - North Korea: What does China really want?

CLA - My reading is that China wants North Korea to be able to follow the Chinese method of development. On adopting this model, North Korea will have to abandon the monolithic political system, which it uses, it would recognize a smaller specific weight of the monochratic leadership in relation to more modern economic practices and allow less difficult survival conditions to its population. As derived, a gradual and sure process of easing with South Korea, with benefits for both sides of the peninsula. Finally, the Koreans of the two sides of the 38th parallel make up the same people speak the same language and recognize the same traditions. I see in the ideology which separates them an exogenous element to the culture of that people and very recent for its millenary history.

WS - Chinese diplomacy has been quite active in Africa and  Latin America. Short term commercial interests or long term strategic movement?

CLA - I understand it to be long term. The Chinese are projecting themselves by way of their investments in infrastructure in the countries of these continents, in order to make possible the unimpeded obtention of raw materials which they need.  In other words, they implant the “complete package”: mines, railroads and ports as they are to do in Zambia and Angola, for example. Another example is the exploration of petroleum by a Chinese company in Sudan: the position of Beijing in abstaining in the UNO when voting the constitution of the peace, in the face of the problem in Darfur, is coherent with the interests of China. What we are going to see is the cost/benefit for the African people, because, for these, there has not been a significant opening of jobs: almost all the workers are Chinese. There can be some negative local reaction to this strategic movement from China. 

WS - How does China see  Brasil today?

CLA - I see that Brazil, for China, is an important partner in the South American  context. In the technological field, there is the China-Brazil Earth Resources Satellite (CBERS), an original agreement which permits both countries to realize sensoring of areas of their respective territories. In the commercial field, China is our third largest commercial partner, after the US and Argentina, according to data from the Secretaria de Comércio Exterior (SeCEx). But a consultation from China’s Customs Statistics shows that Brazil is not among the ten largest commercial partners of the Chinese. We should then qualify our importance to the Chinese. 

WS - Studying and understanding China is fundamental. How can universities, governmental institutions and Brazilian companies encourage the training of new China specialists? 

CLA - There could be more intertwining between universities, institutions and private companies. It is not a matter of mere utilitarism but pragmatism, if we knew what we wanted. The search for talent by companies in universities could incentivate youngsters to dedicate their studies to China in its multiple aspects. We know that it is necessary to know something about their culture, their habits, practices and the institutions. It is vital to know the existing historical tensions to perceive the signals emitted here and there, so as to be able to take the most appropriate decisions.

WS - With the investment of billionaire state injections in the economy and the demonization, for now, of the capitalist system, can the Chinese model become a reference? 

CLA - Maybe it is premature to affirm that it may be a reference. Especially if we refer to the present crisis. The demonstrations of overcoming over history show that the Chinese present solutions that appear to us to be squaring the circle. They are different. Who knows if they will not reach the overcoming of the “irreconcilable” brothers which came from illuminist ideals, liberalism and  socialism, by way of an extraordinary synthesis.


Interview by Marcos Guedes Pereira